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Display: Newer posts at the top{1}##LOC[OK]## {1}##LOC[OK]## ##LOC[Cancel]## {1} ##LOC[OK]## ##LOC[Cancel]## This is an open forum. We are not responsible for the content of the post. The content of the articles does not reflect the opinion of the editors. New postNew topicDisplay: Newer posts on topFirst«12»Last| Pana Geisha as a supplement to Buderus oil condensing boiler Kb195i - WITHOUT WW | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:01.11.2021 11:56:10 03213804 |
| Hello everyone, I had already asked the question here in the neighboring "Heating" forum, but the answers were the same a bit modest... Hence my hope for the geisha experts! :) I was more likely to get a buffer storage tank with a heating element than an LWP... The following key data: - DHH with 140 square meters of living space, KLB stones plus insulation, new windows (double glazing) - underfloor heating everywhere - since 2017 Buderus oil condensing boiler Kb195i with 14kW , modulating down to 25% heating output - hot water via continuous-flow heater, so NO WW tank necessary! - the flow temperature of the heating system usually levels off around 30°C, of course depending on how cold it is outside. - ~10kWp PV system since this year on the roof At the beginning of December 2017, in the dead of winter, our old oil heating system broke down and had to be replaced. We had bought the house in August 2017, so very bad timing. I was toying with the idea of a heat pump back then, but I was in a hurry (because it was freezing cold and the children were at home and the structural conditions "just" didn't allow a heat pump to be installed) and out of the emergency it became the Kb195i. A little later it became the Co2 Tax on heating oil presented... Congratulations! In the transitional period, the boiler currently runs in the morning from 5.45 a.m. to 10 a.m. and then again in the afternoon from 4 p.m. to 8 p.m. In winter, when it gets cold, the boiler actually runs from morning to evening ( 5.45 a.m. - 7 p.m.) and then only with 25% output. Especially for the time when the boiler is running continuously, I would like to put the PV surplus into the heat pump during the day. Depending on the winter, we use around 1200-1500l of oil. Last winter with 3 weeks and -12°C, it was a bit more, we were at 1800l. Now that the PV system has been installed on the roof this year, I am toying with the idea of expanding it to a hybrid system next year. The Kb195i boiler can be upgraded to the Buderus Kbh195i hybrid system. The WLW196i 6kW Buderus LWP and a "hybrid manager" would have to be installed. The two subsystems including the control should probably be coordinated with each other. I've already diligently plowed through the forum here and read something. The Geisha seems to be favored here, which would definitely be an option for me. I could also operate the Geisha monovalent with 5kW output, if you look purely at the heating load, I am aware of that. In the photovoltaic forum, I was advised to use the oil condensing boiler " write it off" and just install a geisha. "Writing off" 10k Eur after 4 years is tough stuff for me, but good. Again for clarification: we do not need WW storage, since we provide WW decentralized via DLE. The current hydraulic structure is very simple: VL away from the boiler into the FBH, return to the boiler, done. No mixers, no buffer or hot water tanks (except for the small expansion tank of course). From what I understood the current return flow would go into the geisha, from the geisha it would go back into the boiler and then into the currently available lead. Is that consistent? And does that make sense? I would like to get your input and thank you in advance! | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:01.11.2021 12:18:06 03213812 |
| Oh right , alternative bivalent operation is planned, maybe below 2°C | |
| Author:Entropie | Time:01.11.2021 15:15:55 13213902 |
| There are a few ways to solve this, some have presented their systems on the Aquarea fan page. Since your oil heating is still so young, I would only do WP if you can do it yourself. Then there's no Bafa subsidy, but you can leave the oil boiler inside. Another possibility, you see that you can sell the boiler privately and switch completely to WP. | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:01.11.2021 15:44:09 03213915 |
| Thank you Thanks for the reply! Do you have a link for me? Both to the Aquarea Forum and possibly to a dealer in FR who sends to DE? Own contribution would be feasible, at least setting up the device outside, put the Mamba to the HWR (including drilling), where the current boiler is.From there I would get professional help when it comes to connecting the Mamba to VL / RL. Does it make sense that the return line goes to the geisha instead of to the boiler, the flow of the geisha runs to the boiler and further, as usual? What about the regulation? Do I need any additional controller? | |
| Author: Fritzli | Time:01.11.2021 15:53:48 03213919 |
| HalloEs there are some in the forum that have implemented quite similar things. You can cover your heating load with a HP alone and the flow temperature is also suitable, I would not put myself through the pain of a bivalent system but switch directly to HP. Chimney sweep is also eliminated and you can repurpose the tank room. With the funding, that should be the better solution, 10K or not. If you still get something for the existing system, all the better. Alternatively, you can continue for two or three years and amortize the oil heating, the question is how long the current subsidy rates will continue to exist. | |
| Author:samso | Time:01.11.2021 17:15:26 03213964 |
| Hello , here is the link to the club. Many have ordered here from rjtec. Greetings Samso | |
| Author: chkl | Time: 01.11.2021 20:34:50 13214063 < /td> |
| Hello, I have installed the Buderus hybrid heater with the WLW196i LWWP with 6kW and the GB212 gas condensing boiler. Actually pretty much exactly what you would have thought at first. I also have the hybrid manager running and also 9.9kWp PV on the roof. I do WW via my own BWWP with mainly PV. If you are interested, I can send you information, but most people here in the forum will advise you against the hybrid heating anyway and recommend the Geisha/Jeisha. Which is also ok and correct and probably makes sense. I wanted to write a report on my experience in the next few days and weeks and also why I decided to use hybrid heating. Anyway, good luck | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:01.11.2021 22:58:10 03214113 | @chki oh that's great! I already have a questionnaire in my head and will write it down here tomorrow after work! :DI hope you don't regret it already :P |
| Author:Geisha2021 | Time:02.11.2021 07:34:37 03214153 |
| Hello Christoph386, I have installed a Geisha J 7kW in series with a Buderus oil boiler and put it into operation this autumn. I only want to switch the oil boiler on at low temperatures for hot water preparation or can also be used for heating at very low temperatures. I designed the hydraulics so that I can run all variants. For details see https://www.haustechnikdialog.de/Forum/p/3120607/. I installed everything myself. Greetings Uli | |
| Author:Geisha2021 | Time:02.11.2021 07:51:17 03214160 |
| Chimney sweep is also omitted and you can repurpose the tank room. With the funding, that should be the better solution, 10K or not. If you still get something for the existing system, all the better. Alternatively, you can continue for two or three years and amortize the oil heating, the question is how long the current subsidy rates will continue to exist. The prerequisite for the subsidy is that you have the installation done by a certified specialist company, which is also very expensive due to the high subsidy rates. You also have to find a company that will install it according to your wishes. I would definitely keep the oil boiler, especially since it is still new. My oil heating system is 31 years old and still works with the best values as it did on the first day. I was also advised to dispose of them, but redundancy has never hurt. If you do it yourself, you will get by with a maximum of 6000 EUR. I paid 8300 EUR for my installation. Greeting Uli | |
| Author:lowenergy | Time:02.11.2021 07:59:31 03214165 |
| @Christoph386. With the facts you mentioned in the opening post, I think you should try to get a WH-MDC07J3E5 installed and have the existing oil boiler uninstalled in order to be able to receive full funding from BAFA . Under certain circumstances, Robert from Augsburg will help you to find an installer. | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:02.11.2021 11:29:47 03214251 |
| Soo First of all, thank you all for your answer! @lowenergy why do you advise me to use the 7kW system? Because the heating load of the 5kW u.U.might not be enough on very cold days? @samso thanks for the link to the shop and the Aquarea forum! I'll click my way through there! @Geisha2021 so the first thing to consider is keeping the oil burner and driving bivalent. We have a buried external tank, so the space and smell are secondary. Depending on the hydraulic circuitry, the oil burner will fly out at some point and that's it. Until then, I can continue to use it if I wish. Phew, your system is hydraulically much more complex than mine will be! I want to solve this as simply as possible! See also the question to chki below regarding the pump and the hydraulic circuitry. I don't yet know exactly how to implement this hydraulically. @chki Let's get to you and your hybrid heating! 😃-How satisfied are you with your system in general?-What is this hybrid manager? Is it just an electronic control or does the hydraulics also go through there, so that somehow a switch switches back and forth between the WLW heat pump and the gas boiler? How do you run your system? Alternatively bivalent? Say either WP or gas boiler? -Which bivalent temperature did you set at which the switchover takes place? -How is that hydraulically "connected" in your case? Does the return flow from the heating circuits first go into the HP, the flow from the WPin the gas boiler and from there back into the heating circuit? So basically the HP and the gas heater are connected in series? How does it work with the pump for the heating circuits? I currently have a Grundfos pump that somehow only runs on for 45 minutes after the burner has been switched off. In the Kb195i controller, you can set an after-run between 0 and 60 minutes or 24 hours of continuous operation, nothing more. - Does the hybrid manager or the WP itself have any input that the WP should work more than required if there is enough PV power? I think it makes more sense to store electricity in the form of heat in the screed than to use a buffer storage. -Have you deactivated the heating rod of your WP? -The WLW196 is a monobloc system, right? -Have you already cooled with your WP in the summer? Does that work well? | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:02.11.2021 12:08:50 03214280 |
| @ Geisha2021: how does your control between the geisha and the oil boiler actually look like? Do you do it manually or do you have some type of control electronics installed? | |
| Author:lowenergy | Time:02.11.2021 19:16:46 03214515 |
| Quote by Christoph386 ... why do you advise me to use the 7kW system? Sorry, the automatic browser word recognition hit my Android tablet again! Even if you curiously had higher heating oil consumption in 2020 than in previous years I am of the opinion that a Jeisha (WH-MDC05J3E5) will be sufficient for you. Incidentally, a WH-MDC05F3E5 has been working perfectly in bivalent parallel operation since 10/2014, although the heat pump cannot know that there is another one in our house Possibility for the thermal heating water energy input is available and our two "heaters" have no electrical or electronic connection! 😉👍 | |
| Author:chkl | Time:02.11.2021 20:49:57 13214575 |
| Hello Christoph386, I'll try to answer your questions regarding the Buderus hybrid heating: As I said, I installed the Buderus hybrid heating with the WLW196i LWWP with 6kW and the GB212 gas condensing boiler. - How satisfied are you with your system in general? The system has only been running since this autumn and I am very satisfied - What is this hybrid manager actually? Is it just an electronic control or does the hydraulics also go through there, so that somehow a switch switches back and forth between the WLW heat pump and the gas boiler?The hybrid manager is an electronic assembly that simply controls the external HP. Wire the connection cable to the gas condensing boiler and some sensors and you're done. The PV excess report is also included here.- How do you run your system? Alternatively bivalent? Say either WP or gas boiler?I'm currently only driving WP, later the control strategy "WP preferred", which means above the bivalence point only WP and below the bivalence point WP runs and if this cannot cover the heat requirement for half an hour, the gas heating switches on - What bivalence temperature did you set for the switchover to take place?I thought about the bivalence point at -5 degrees, I'll just try it by determining the AZ and then set it- How is it that "connects" hydraulically in your case? If the return flow from the heating circuits first goes into the HP,the flow from the HP to the gas boiler and from there back to the heating circuit? So, as it were, HP and gas boiler connected in series? The hybrid pump set makes the water delivery to the HP and this is integrated via the gas condensing circulation pump. Could be looked up in the documentation. - How does it work with the pump for the heating circuits? I currently have a Grundfos pump that somehow only runs on for 45 minutes after the burner has been switched off. In the Kb195i control you can set an after-run between 0 and 60 minutes or 24 hours of continuous operation, nothing more.You still need a pump hybrid set, which converts the flow and return to the WP. Hybrid manager control- Does the hybrid manager or the WP itself have any input that the WP should work more than needed if there is enough PV power? I think it makes more sense to store electricity in the form of heat in the screed than to use a buffer storage tank. Yes, the hybrid manager does, if there is a PV surplus, the HP is prevented from being switched off due to the higher outside temperature and the HP pushes heat into the house at the lowest level. But only effective if there is a PV surplus for a long time. Last week I had 7 hours of pure sun, then the flow temperature rose from 30 to 35 degrees during the course of the day and in the evening the HP was then completely off for about 5 hours.- Have you deactivated the heating rod of your HP?< b>This HP does not have a heating element, the alternative heat generator is the gas condensing boiler. The heat comes from this via the hybrid pump set to prevent freezing when the outside temperature is low - The WLW196 is a monoblock system, right? Yes it is monoblock - You already have it with your WP in summer chilled? Does that work well?No, I don't do any cooling in summer, just heatingGeneral: I have a NAT of -14 here and that's why I wanted a second heat generator. I live in the Allgäu in 87677. I was also skeptical about the power consumption of WP's at low outside temperatures, that's why it's a hybrid. My underground liquid gas tank is my property and we'll have the chimney sweep come for the wood stove anyway. Heating load based on own calculation with forum support per year approx. 6kW, hence the 6kW HP. The liquid gas consumption in 2019 was 2910 liters, is approx. 19119kWhToday we had approx. +8 degrees all day and approx. +4 degrees at night, here the WP runs constantly with approx. 700W and 30 degrees VL. I determined today: WMZ with 63kWh heat requirement from the house, electrical output 12.1kWh, gives an AZ of 4.74 >Time:02.11.2021 21:44:15 13214606 | |
| Quote from Christoph386 @Geisha2021: what does your arrangement between geisha and the oil boiler actually look like ?Do you do it manually or do you have some control electronics installed? The geisha has his hat on. You can set a bivalent temperature value from which the oiler switches on. This is done via relays that switch the 3-way valves and release the burner. The four-way valve is controlled by the oil heater according to the heating characteristic of the oil heater outside temperature. For hot water preparation, the geisha switches the 3-way valve to the storage tank. With this signal, when the temperature is low (via an additional temperature controller), the oiler is also started and looped into the hydraulic path. The reason for this is that I want to do the WW at around 2°C with oil heating support because the COP of the WP is bad at a water temperature of 50°C. So I have two independent switch-on points for dual mode operation and for WW preparation. My system is a bit complex for historical reasons because I have 3 memory for the WW; the thermal solar storage tank, the oil heating storage tank and the new HP-compatible storage tank. In the summer, or sometimes even from March to April, I do all the hot water I need with the sun. Additional electronics ensure temperature equalization between the 3 storage tanks. | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:03.11.2021 10:50:10 03214772 |
| Thank you a heartfelt thank you! The circle seems to be slowly closing! :D@chki, that's very revealing! I have a phone call to Buderus tomorrow, I'll have them explain the rest to me! On-site appointments in your branches are currently not given due to the corona, but on the phone is also good! :)@lowenergy Good, I'm back with you with the 5kW Geisha! :D You wrote a quote from lowenergy By the way, since 10/2014 a WH-MDC05F3E5 has been working perfectly in bivalent parallel operation, although the heat pump cannot knowthat in our house there is another possibility for the thermal heating water energy input and our two "heaters" have no electrical or electronic connection! 😉👍 So your name is also bivalent? It's very cool that I'm not the only one who comes up with such ideas :DDo I understand correctly that the geisha and your fossil plant are hydraulically just in series? Without any communication between both devices? And the geisha eventually goes out (below the valency temperature) and the fossil generator takes over? @Geisha2021: do you need any additional circuit boards for the geisha to be able to tap into these control outputs? | |
| Author:lowenergy | Time:03.11.2021 18:58:01 03215004 |
| Quote by Christoph386 ... So you also mean bivalent? It's very cool that I'm not the only one who comes up with such ideas :DDo I understand correctly that the geisha and your fossil plant are hydraulically just in series? Without any communication between both devices? And the geisha goes out at some point (below the valence temperature) and the fossil producer takes over? The 5 kW Panasonic F-series monoblock that we installed ourselves is practically the boss and keeps the house heating circuit water temperature from the heating limit temperature (+17°C) adjusted in its controller fully automatically at the desired level. Below the heating limit temperature (+4°C) set in the control of our 2nd "heating source" (district heating transfer station), this only "churns" as much thermal energy into the house heating circuit water as required, so that the parameters set by weather-compensated control are necessary Target flow temperature can be maintained by the heating circuit. Our WH-MDC05F3E5 runs from the heating limit temperature 24/7 and, even on the coldest of days, continuously supplies thermal energy extracted from the outside air via the compressor via the refrigerant circuit to the house heating circuit. If you are interested in our system, visit the following linked page little something to read. http://aquarea.smallsolutions.de/index.php?title=Anlage_lowEnergy | |
| Author:Geisha2021 | Time:04.11.2021 07:05: 24 03215155 |
| Quote from Christoph386 @Geisha2021: do you need any additional circuit boards for the geisha to be able to tap into these control outputs?[... ]Yes, you need it. Take a look at the rjtec shop website, everything is listed there. I bought the additional circuit board, the Internet gateway and the additional sound insulation. Incidentally, you can download the complete service manual from Panasonic, where all the details of the function and commissioning are explained. | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:04.11.2021 08:40:43 03215204 |
| Thank you Thanks for your answers! I'm looking forward to today's discussion with Buderus. But as I read here, you can also use the geisha as a second heat source without any problems. The arrangement seems to be more or less easy to implement. The Geisha would certainly be the cheaper option. I'll start studying the service manual for the weekend and will certainly come back with control-related questions. Greetings, Christoph | |
| Author: SebDob | Time:04.11.2021 09:07:57 23215221 |
| I don't understand the reasoning. The oiler is almost new, yes. But the maintenance alone will already be 1/3 of the operating costs of the WP. You have 140 square meters, calculate how much you pay in euros. I guess I have similar values, i.e. 300-400 € electricity per year. What does the chimney sweep, maintenance, etc. cost? It's clear where the costs are going, I would completely rebuild it right away. There is no danger of sitting cold in winter... | |
| Author:Seevetaler | Time:04.11.2021 09:45:45 23215242 |
| Convert completely to WP - as recommended several times. And you sell me your KB195i for €1,000. Then the WP becomes a bargain... :-) | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:04.11.2021 12:21:05 03215371 |
| So with a heat requirement of 15,000kWh per year and an AC of 4.5, I spend EUR 920 on electricity. Due to PV self-consumption accordingly less. Due to PV I do not want to use heat pump electricity and let myself be switched off. 1500l of oil currently costs me (I'll take 80Eur/100l) 1200Eur. Well, I have to have the heating serviced for EUR 120 a year and still pay for the Schorni, let's calculate roughly EUR 70 a year for that. Total EUR 1400. My tank is still well filled from the last Corona year, approx. 2800l left. I assume that in the coming year I will be able to fill up for less than 80Eur per 100l. If oil should be cheaper next year,let's say maybe 65 EUR per 100 l, I'm not really much cheaper with the heat pump itself (920 EUR electricity vs. 1165 EUR oil + maintenance + Schorni). Especially if I assume that the price of electricity will not increase, which is what I am doing here. Plus I would have a complete write-off of the boiler. Depending on the hydraulic connection, I can simply uninstall the burner at some point and that's fine... I will definitely not remove it directly, even if many people advise it. And it's even understandable, but still nope... | |
| Author: Fritzli | Time:04.11.2021 13:26:06 03215397 |
| Why not just empty the tank and then convert in 2 years in the summer? So you can use the oil and amortize the system a bit. Or fill up again and then change completely in 3 or 4 years, then the system will be almost 10 years old. If you are not willing to accept the copyist, resp. to invest, the whole story is debatable. | |
| Author:Christoph386 | Time:04.11.2021 14:23:35 03215418 |
| I let me make an offer next year and then I'll see what's next! Whether it's the Buderus WP, the Geisha and whether with an oil burner or without can still fly someday. Except for the Schornikosten and as long as it runs, I see nothing disadvantageous. |
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